Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Meleenium on September 24th 2014, 8:50 pm

Like I said, I know you can play mind games in DOA. But it's not the same thing as a guessing game. There's times where it's guessing games and not a mind game. That's what I'm telling you. And there's less potential for it in comparison to Tekken.

What makes Tekken have more mind game potential is that there's more potential for strict grounded(as in not juggled) poking and spacing. I don't see how NC, or NCc have any difference in principle either because there's virtually no difference between a two hit NC that does a total of x damage vs a single hit that does the same exact damage with the same advantages and disadvantages on block. Only difference is, one is animated to have tow hits.

Christie, Bayman, Ninjas(who aren't exactly slow compared to Christiem and there's like 100 of them in the game), doesn't matter. All characters in the game have major combo potential off of fast frame moves. Pokes lead to big combos in the game. Tekken's NCs don't even compare.

Side note: Christie has practically the lowest damage output in the game.

A wrong guess in DOA is normally nowhere near as punishing as a wrong guess in Tekken.

You don't even have the simple option to just block in a lot of the guessing games because you're stunned. You simply have to guess which reversal is best, which you're not gonna get most of the time. On top of that, attempting a reversal and guessing wrong is worse than not attempting a reversal and just taking the damage; a failed reversal basically increases your recovery time.

In Tekken, the odds are in your favor. Just blocking covers high and mid defense. Ducking covers high and low defence. You're 2/3, or 66.666% in chances of getting the right defensive option. And grabs can be seen on reaction, so I'm not even gonna consider that. In DOA, you're stunned, and you're defences are for any high, mid punch, mid kick, lows and grabs which is 1 in 5, and of course, the timing matters. So you might try a high reversal, but the high comes later than when you attempted. So somewhere < 1/5(20%) verses Tekken's 66.6%. All that because you got poked a little bit.

If we're thinking of DOA reversals as combo breakers, you have like over an 80% chance of failing the combo breaker. So basically in DOA you can get near guaranteed(80% guaranteed if that makes sense) combos off of fast pokes.

And it's got that silly get-up kick that rewards players for getting beat up.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Alisassy on September 25th 2014, 5:55 pm

All i read from that is a complaint that there are too many options to pick from and your sad that you actually have to put an effort into defense, because the odds are not in you're favour. I see nothing wrong with that.

Since you're bring in ducking to defend against highs in Tekken, you can also use a low hold in DOA to avoid a high and throws.

And the wake up kick doesn't reward players for getting beat up. You still have to land it first, and as we've established they are many ways to deal with them. And l o fucking l at you even bringin up a reward for gettin beat when you just cried that it's too hard to stop someone on the offensive. Pick a side and stay on it.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Meleenium on September 25th 2014, 8:20 pm

And l o fucking l at you even bringin up a reward for gettin beat when you just cried that it's too hard to stop someone on the offensive. Pick a side and stay on it.

I don't think getting poked a little makes you deserving of a nearly guaranteed combo. The opponent barely had to work for it. It's just plain bad design.

And my "side" isn't either of those things. The side I've been sticking to is certain things shouldn't happen in certain situations in a fighting game, because it's just sloppy design that won't make sense.

And the wake up kick doesn't reward players for getting beat up. You still have to land it first

Maybe reward isn't the right word. They get a break for being beaten up. They're hardly at a disadvantage on the ground. I'd even go so far as to say they're not at any disadvantage.

There's been so many times where I'm being overwhelmed and become glad that I got knocked to the ground. Because now I have a good chance of reversing or neutralizing the momentum with little risk.

The kick is a momentum killer, even if it's blocked. They're still in a decent situation when someone blocks it, and if someone backs away from it, that's even better. The opponent's momentum is gone, whether the kick hits or not. If it's reversed, then that's different, but you won't get that the majority of the time.

All i read from that is a complaint that there are too many options to pick from and your sad that you actually have to put an effort into defense, because the odds are not in you're favour.

What effort? How do you put effort into guessing? Putting effort into guessing doesn't change the odds at all. It's simple math. I don't care how much effort you put into throwing out scissors in RPS. It doesn't change the odds.

And it's not a complaint. I don't even lose often at this game. In fact, my win streak is actually perfect in rank. But that doesn't mean I can't have an unbiased look at the game and see it's flaws. Most of my criticism is based off of what I'm able to get away with against other people, not what I can't deal with.

Games have flaws. I swear, it's like no one can point out flaws in a game without getting grief for it, and that we should just ignore flaws. Because anyone who points them out is complaining, right? You're being one of those people.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Alisassy on September 26th 2014, 2:55 pm

Lol, i can see games that have flaws, i'm all for pointin them out. Its just clearly we have different views on this matter. You think its a flaw. I don't. I've already made a complaint about DOA and the animation for cliff hangers, i'm not "omg this is amazing no one can say anything wrong about this ever".

And fair enough on your side, i jumped the gun on that one. And ok the wake up kick can be a momentum killer, but there is enough time to read the wake up kick. If you can see throws in Tekken on reaction to duck (if you can see it to break, even better), you should definitely be able to see the wake up kicks and hold accordingly. Get a few holds in, they stop doing them. Then comes to play the whole "oh i can do wake up kicks again since i havent used them in so long and they wont expect it" meta.

And effort into looking at their moves, learning their strings, knowing their options and seeing what they normally go for. IE the same effort that you'd have to put in to "are they going low? do i have enough time to low parry or do i have to block? is it better advantage if i block instead of low parry? should i crush it instead?" in Tekken. Ok, there's more options in DOA, so you have a higher chance of getting it wrong, but i don't see it as a flaw.

And why complain about what you can get away with and blame the game for that? Blame the opponent. If no one could deal with a mechanic, then yes, i would agree it is flawed. But i've pointed out ways to deal with it, you've said you can deal with it, wheres the flaw? Millions can't deal with bryan's snake edge (df3?) and many players get away with that, lets call that a flaw.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Meleenium on September 26th 2014, 3:41 pm

Even if there's a way to deal with something, it doesn't mean it's a good mechanic, or that the game wouldn't be better off with out it.

A random example, and you may not understand as you don't play this game competitively. In Dark Souls 1, there's a mechanic where you can do a backstab animation just by getting behind the opponent and pushing the attack button. It takes away a lot of health, sometimes even one-hit killing the opponent. There's a large window to trigger the animation, meaning it hardly takes any precision to do it. So this causes people to always have a general strategy to fish for backstabs. The depth of the game is reduced to people always trying to do this and nothing else.

Granted, there's ways to deal with this and we see backstab fishing strategies less often at higher level play. But it's still a bad mechanic that shouldn't be there. The game would be better off with out it. Most players agree too.

And I think DOA would be better off without the two get-up kicks that crush nearly everything. So you can see the kicks on reaction like the grabs in Tekken. But grabs in Tekken happen when both opponents are on their feet where the momentum is often--and appropriately so--neutral. The fact that I have to wait and see the kick instead of interrupting it, because it crushes everything, is silly. You should have the momentum when get on the ground, and having the momentum never means waiting to see what the opponent does. Having the momentum is when the opponent is trying to see what you're doing, because you're the one on the offense and attack.

But no, you can't really be on the offense when they're on the ground in DOA. You gotta wait and see what they're gonna do, just AFTER you beat their ass. Waiting to see what they do, or backing away is a way to deal with it. Question is, why do I even have to do that?

Rage in Tekken(particularly T6, as TTT2, there's more depth to it) is another example of a silly mechanic. Now we might agree that it can be dealt with, but who the hell cares?! What the heck is it doing in the game in the first place?! It's better off gone! I don't really lose matches due to rage, but I still see it as a ridiculous mechanic.

As for the Critical Hits, I wouldn't mind so much having a 1/4 - 1/5 or so chance of guessing  during the situation, provided it took more difficulty to put people into that situation.

The point is, the situation arises from getting people with a few simple pokes. If I had to do a relatively slow move to get people in that situation, it would be better.

Overall, I don't have a problem with most situations themselves. I have a problem with what it takes for those situations to arise. To put people in a 20% disfavored guessing situation in DOA, you just have to poke at them a little. To put them in a situation where they have to sit and wait defensively to see what you're going to do, you have to just get beat up a little. Doesn't that sound silly to you, especially that last one?

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Alisassy on September 26th 2014, 4:05 pm

I get the DaS1 comparison. Fair enough, but my response would be what you already pointed out, thats its seen less often in high level because it can be dealt with. I'm not a player so i dont have much of a say, but in a game thats so unforgiving and brutal, i think that back stab mechanic fits in naturally. Keeps you on your toes.

Can't remember if i said earlier, but i do agree with you on the crushing aspect of wake up kicks, particularly the low wake up kick but thats kinda where it ends. Either it has a stupid hitbox or low crushes in the game have stupid hitboxes and they dont actually crush.

Yes, its dumb the mid kick can interrupt moves that should've hit the kicker instead, but there's always the down attacks. They beat wake up kicks. Even mids. DOAs wake up game is still evolving, i think this is the first game you can hit them on the ground that isnt a specific down attack. And thats how it has to be approached. Down attacks to keep the offensive on wake up kicks (unless you have been blessed with a reliable move that crushes the low wake up and thats what your taking a risk with), standard attacks on people that get up, either on those that lie there and take it. Reversals may kill the momentum since the person on the offense has wait and stop, but it does the most dmg. It's part of the game and it makes it different

And I'm not sure what your stance on anime fighters and all that are, I know you hate SF, but I'd compare the wake up kick in DOA to a wake up DP in 2D / anime fighters. You can't just keep pressuring and pressuring because they'll DP your ass. Like the wake up kick, there are ways to get around the wake up DP. Perhaps another reason why we have such different views about it.

As for the 20% disfavoured guess situation, amma just come out and say it if it isnt obvious, i like the stun system in DOA. I like that situation. Sure, it can be infuriating at times and you get blown up, but it can happen in every game.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Meleenium on September 27th 2014, 12:04 am

The majority of DSouls players hate it, even the higher level players hate it. Players will organize events in the game where backstabs aren't allowed or only allowed in specific situation. It's that bad. It wasn't this bad in Demon's Souls(it was very hard to land). It has a backstab mechanic, but you have to be more precise to your exact position behind the opponent. So it actually took skill to land. Same with DaS2. It's only DaS1 that has this issue. The DSouls series is generally only brutal and unforgiving if you become careless, impatient or don't take the time to strategize. You can't just go in all willy nilly. That's what the game disfavors is people who wing it. So it was more appropriate in D'sS where you would generally only get backstabbed if you were being careless. But DaS1, you can put so much effort into being careful and still get BS'd for stupid reasons.

It's not just the crushing that I dislike about the get-up kick. It's also 100% homing. If it only crushed a little bit and didn't track completely(or at all), it'd be a lot better.

I don't really play 2D fighters. I wanted to get into Blazblue and King of Figherrs(I played Maximum Impact), but never got around to it. But I can say in a broader sense, in any game, there's mechanics that can just be stupid, even if there's a way to deal with them. The rubberband effect in racing games for example, I think is silly.

In general, there should always be a way to deal with pressure in fighting games, but I think it's silly in DOA that the pressure practically ends(in the majority of cases) once they're on the ground. The game basically gives them a break.

I noticed however, that this isn't entirely the case with Ninjas though. They can do a lot more than other characters, like jump over the opponent while they're doing a wake-up kick. And Ryu can teleport in the air and grab them no matter what kick they do.

But one of the only clever thing I can do with Christie besides counter is this @2:20, and it only works on the low get-up kick for a guaranteed hit.



Or for the low and high kick, I can time it later like  at 1:21 of this vid, and they get to block it. But the move gives me a frame advantage. But I have to make sure I'm at the exact right distance and right timing.



And then there's one other thing she can do that only works at the exact right distance, but it'll hit them if they do both kicks, but I don't know which video I do it in. And I don't even know what I can do with Helena, but it could be because I don't study her enough.

But point is, it takes more advanced strategies to keep the momentum. I'm all for things generally taking more advanced tactics, but not for everything, including this case of keeping the momentum while they're knocked down. I feel you deserve to be at an easy advantage if you knock your opponent down.

And as I said, I don't mind the 20% disfavor, if it were harder to put someone into that situation. There should be less moves(particularly slower moves) that put people into a stun. Then the game can be a little more poke oriented like how Tekken is when you're not juggling.

I'm not saying the game should be like Tekken. Because if they did what I suggested, I still think it would be a lot different from Tekken at it's core.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Alisassy on September 27th 2014, 2:38 pm

Well, as how you consider it easy to put them in the situation that leads to puttin them on the ground, do you really think you should get an easy advantage without having to do some skill? That would be overkill.

Together, they compliment each other. One or the other wouldnt work.

I know you're looking to get rid of both, but the stun game and how much it impacts on the game is what makes DOA DOA. Its where most of the dmg is done really. Its fast paced and at any moment the momentum can shift completely, i like that. It can happen in all fighters, but in DOA its much more common. Its hands down my fave fighter to watch.

Not sure if she still has them, i think Force Techs were nerfed from Vanilla to Ultimate, but thats what Helena relied on. Her juggles usually didn't let them perform a wake up kick. You knocked them down and forced them up.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Meleenium on September 27th 2014, 7:48 pm

I guess, but I think it would be better the other way around just because I think it makes more sense. The initial situation should be more difficult to get to, then if you manage to get it, you in a sense, earn your way to easier situations as you gain the edge.

The kicks I'm into getting rid of, or at least the properties they have. The stuns don't have to go. I just think they shouldn't be so easy to get. I think the idea of having stuns is great though.

And I wouldn't exactly describe DOA as shifting momentum at any time, and I think it's because of the mechanics I mentioned. A stunned situation is harder to get out of than when you're getting poked and pressured in Tekken. Because in Tekken, you're not exactly stunned. You're just at a frame disadvantage, but you can block.

You see more often in Tekken people exchanging blows down to the last bit of health more often than DOA. In DOA, the one who's landing hits is gonna be the only one landing hits for a good moment. Then when his momentum ends, the momentum can shift to the opponent where he's the only one landing blows for the next few moments.

Not saying this doesn't happen in Tekken because it definitely does. But Tekken is more likely than DOA to have moments where both opponents are literally trading single hits back and forth. Not saying it doesn't happen in DOA, but I don't think it's nearly as common in DOA.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Alisassy on November 18th 2014, 10:33 pm

*moves on with my life*

Raidou is the "new" male

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/11/18/first-dead-alive-boss-returns-cyborg-dead-alive-5-last-round/

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Via Purifico on November 18th 2014, 11:19 pm

Mess, and as a cyborg at that. 
Hints at Miss Monday too since she specializes at that technology. 

Hair not black means red or blonde. new girl ,miss monday or Irene.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by CFW on November 18th 2014, 11:40 pm

To be fair, he was never announced as a new character. I would love Miss Monday tho. I would have liked it to be Yaiba instead.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by CFW on November 19th 2014, 10:38 pm

I don't like bringing attention to rapists (whether it's fiction or reality), but here's R**d**.

http://www.freestepdodge.com/attachments/raidou-jpg.8000/

http://www.freestepdodge.com/attachments/marie-jpg.8001/

From this second one I'm assuming the new girls have those dumb cutscenes now. And you can see the contest outfits in the first link.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Alisassy on November 25th 2014, 6:58 pm

Alpha got clothes. A school uniform at that. (@F)

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Via Purifico on November 27th 2014, 10:38 am

Raidou lost his memories due to the cybernetic upgrades.
Didn't Hayate have the same storyline when DOATEC tried to make project epsilon?

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by CFW on December 4th 2014, 12:15 pm

A damn shame @ those recolors


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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Meleenium on December 5th 2014, 7:37 pm


See this is why DOA should just have a customization mode.

Also, not Hitomi's leis being another example of a costume that breaks all of time and space to stick to dem bewbs.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by CFW on December 5th 2014, 8:51 pm

I don't know about that... I'm on the fence about it. 

The customization on new gen (+arcade version) is almost like Tekken 5's already, so I wouldn't be surprised if that happens in DOA6 or later.

Not interested in these, Rachel has the best swim suit in that collection tho.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Alisassy on December 6th 2014, 11:20 am

So that new char teaser at the end is givin me another Marie Rose vibe

@Meleenium wrote:
See this is why DOA should just have a customization mode.

Also, not Hitomi's leis being another example of a costume that breaks all of time and space to stick to dem bewbs.  

nipple tape

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by CFW on December 6th 2014, 11:27 am

The keyword TN was usin was "biggest" so I'm gonna assume she's chubby. Utilizing the soft skin engine (@)

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by CFW on January 13th 2015, 12:49 pm

MR with titties


http://i.imgur.com/O0bSlYM.jpg

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Alisassy on January 13th 2015, 2:20 pm

I'll wait for the gameplay trailer in a few days... ON a semi related note, they really need to fix the character placement choices on that select screen now

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Bosca on January 13th 2015, 2:55 pm

Why do I feel like she's gonna be using sumo style moves? Her design is bland as fook tbh.
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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by Alisassy on January 13th 2015, 3:01 pm

Watch her still get 7 different school uniform DLCs

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

Post by CFW on January 13th 2015, 3:16 pm

TN kinda lost that spark on makin new characters.

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Re: Dead Or Alive 5 - Last Round

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